From: Miha Ahronovitz (miha@io.org)
Subject: De ce nu emigreaza Rosca si Caragiu in
Israel? was Re: Erata pentru domnul Ahronovitz
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Date: 1996/03/26
In article <4j5rbk$g52@epervier.CC.UMontreal.CA>, roscai@ERE.UMontreal.CA
says...
>
>Domnule Ahronovitz,
>
>
>Dar am facut se pare o greseala punindu-va in gura reprosurile altuia pentru
>ca "toleram" statuile lui Antonescu.Imi dau seama de nedreptate (avind in
>vedere pozitia dv mult mai nuantata pe aceasta tema) si retractez
>referirea eronata la dv.
>
>Va asigur ca nu ma astept la reciprocitate.
>
>Ioan Rosca
Ma asteptam sa faci remarca prin care sa spui ca lupta pentru pedepsirea
crimelor comuniste nu are nimica de a face cu "rasele" individuale.
Clarificarea pune urmatoarea dilema: hai sa zicem ca un evreu ar fi dorit sa sa
se uneasca miscarii legionare. Cum vezi, suntem oameni si nu mase amorfe. Dar
insasi doctrina legionara nu putea permite asta. La fel cu evreii care ar fi
dorit sa intre in partidul Nazist din germania.... Comparatia mea nu este fara
baza. In partidul fascist al lui Mussollini in anul 1933 erau citiva evrei
italieni, care au fost disparuti dupa alinata lui Mussolini cu Hitler.
Cu toate astea, nu m-as mira sa vad un posting pe SCR in care evreii sunt
acuzati si de crimele naziste !!!! Deja au fost citeva interventii, ultima al
istoricului David Irving in Anglia si altora care au descris pe larg cum Capo,
garzile de evrei recrutate in lagarele germane sa-si extermine
co-religionarii, au comis crimele si nu germanii...... (asa un rahat....)
Felul cum de exemplu Mihai Caragiu alege faptele izolate, ca un rabin fanatic
si marginal care a spus ca singele unui palestinian nu conteaza, arata cita de
partinitoare sunt argumentele care se construiesc. De ce Mihai Caragiu nu alege
sutele si miile de opinii israeliene care condamna si depling mortile de
nevinovati arabi si copii palestineni? Pentru ca expresia asta nu este in
directia sentimentelor lui de ura fata de statul israelian, care acomodeaza
spectre totale de idei si pareri, ca orice stat democrat. Da, democrat; nu
conteaza daca accepta Caragiu idea asta, dar Israel este un stat democrat
pentru cetatenii lui, care includ 20% de origine romana si in care , contrar a
ce crede Mihai, i se poate da lui cetatenia, chiar nefiind evreu, mult mai
repede decit in USA sau in Canada.
Daca va intereseaza Rosca si Caragiu, va pot da informatiile cum sa emigrati in
Israel, fara a va transforma in evrei si unde veti putea publica exact aceleasi
idei pe care le scrieti aicea. Nu stiu daca ve-ti mai avea atunci motivatia sa
le mentineti, dar sunt convins ca veti gasi citiva pina si acolo sa fie
aliatzi. Puteti sa o luati si pe Elena Daniel-yan cu voi..
Miha
From: ascorpio (marcelv@astral.magic.ca)
Subject: Re: De ce nu emigreaza Rosca si Caragiu in
Israel? was Re: Erata pentru domnul Ahronovitz
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Date: 1996/03/27
In article <4j8sun$o3l@news1.io.org>, miha@io.org (Miha Ahronovitz) wrote:
>
>Ma asteptam sa faci remarca prin care sa spui ca lupta pentru pedepsirea
>crimelor comuniste nu are nimica de a face cu "rasele" individuale.
>
Domnule Ahronovitz,
Stiu ca nu-i bine sa ma bag unde nu-mi fierbe oala, dar polemica asta
Ahrronovitz/Rosca/Caragiu/etc mi se pare a nu face alceva decat
sa-ntretina o naluca la fel de daunatoare sanatatii mintale si s.c.r
-ului ca problema maghiara in Transylvania, oul lui Calumb sau perpetuum
mobile.
Cu tot respectul pentru suferintele evreilor in anii de prigoana nazizta,
pentru suferinta umana in general si parerile domniilor voastre in
particular, opiniile sant si raman opinii (si partea proasta este ca toate
sant prin definitie subiective) si mai ales NU vor rezolva situatiile
trecute, prezente sau viitoare. Ca cu fiecare activitate umana, pastrarea
proportiilor si relativitatii la context ar fi binevenita in asemenea
polemici.
Pentru fiecare lucru se pot fabrica/gasi argumente pro so contra ad infinitum.
Nimeni nu poate detine monopolul intregului adevar -nici macar nu putem
spera sa-l cunoastem in totalitate, asa ca inevitabil acest gen de
discutii cu cine-i mai tare si mai mare sau mai bun si mai rau nu vor
genera decat resentiment, frustare si eventual mentinerea atitudinilor de
tip:
"I know better!" si "Las ca va aratam noi cine-i sef aici!"
Which is a real shame!
Cat despre democratie, de la Athena incoace n-o facu nimeni sa mearga cum
trebuie, dar ne hranim mereu cu iluzia c-o putem "vota" intru fiinta
candva... in viitor.
Atata vreme cat constiinta individului nu se va schimba d-le Ahronovitz,
indiferent de-i evreu, roman sau malgas, NIMIC nu va fi nou sub soare...
din pacate. Solvarea omenirii sta in sinea noastra, nu in mase, democratie
sau solutii colective. Cei ce refuza sa vada acest adevar, se-mbata cu apa
rece...
Ca un contrapunct la mesajul dumneavostra, in parte citat mai sus, v-as
ruga respectuos sa cugetati la:
-Cine a fost instrumental la bagarea cu forta a comunismului in Romania...
-"Rasa" sau grupul etnic al Anei Pauker si al lui Teohari Georgescu.
_"Rasa" sau grupul etnic al lui Marx si Lenin, tatucii comunismului asa
cum, din nefericire, il cunoastem din proprie experinta.
Numai bine,
marcel vatasescu
PS
Sant curios de formalitatile de emigrare pentru Israel ca non -evreu.
Puteti sa-mi trimiteti amanunte/info despre procedura? V-as fi
recunoscator.
From: Rad Edelstein
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Date: 1996/03/23
>Motto : " Lui Simon Wiesenthal nu cred ca i-ati spune ca e
>intransigent, nu cred ca l-ati acuza de robespierrianism pentru ca a
>facut o viata ceea ce a facut."(Gabriel Liiceanu )
Poor selection. The equation of a reign of terror with the hunting
down
of Nazi criminals...
One, with the aim of destroying political enemies and reshaping
mentalities, the other with the aim of bringing to justice people
whose
crimes are clear and determined.
But then, you always postulate; you have your monologue and do not
engage in conversation, so I guess I'll never know whether you were
unaware of it or just your plain self...
> Obstacole in denuntarea comunicidului;
> Apel catre evreii romani
> (Marginalii la un dialog Liiceanu-Sava)
Quite a chutzpach, Mr. Rosca! Not long ago your postings had a pro-
Legion apologetic tone. Now you fancy Jews and the "new greens" in
the same room? They've been there before and we know the consequences.
If you ever read replies to your postings (in particular my replies)
you could see that my position on the necessity of a process of Communism
in Romania do not differ from yours. The difference is in the
application of justice - yours is selective. Do I have to remind you that you
have constantly singled Jews and Jews only as the primary targets, or are
you aware of it? Can you find any nominal accusation of an ethnically
Romanian communist in your postings? Or maybe I am [again :^) ] the
absurd one who concocts that there were Romanian communists?
> Dialogul Liiceanu-Sava ilustreaza exemplar mocnita contradictie
>care opune pe intelectualii din Romania in problema denuntarii
>comunicidului. Doresc sa-mi arat absoluta solidaritate si simpatie
>fata de pozitia lui Liiceanu in acest interviu. In acelasi timp as vrea
>sa repun in discutie retinerea unora in judecarea comunismului.
>
Now you're talking! This I recognize! "Unora" means Jews, right?
And to claim that I don't pay attention to what you say :-) !
> Liiceanu se straduie sa-i explice domnului Sava importanta
>Procesului Comunismului, pentru sanatatea morala (chiar mintala) a
>poporului roman -de azi si mai ales de miine. Sava pareaza
>continuu, se ascunde dupa generalitati manipulate savant, isi
>transfigureaza interesele in "echilibrul moderatorului", ba chiar il
>acuza pe interlocutor de excesivitate !
> Din fericire , Liiceanu gaseste tonul, energia, decenta ,
>demnitatea si claritatea necesara pentru a demonta subterfugiile
>propagandistice anti-justitiare. El amendeaza prompt "licente" cu
>care ne-am obisnuit deja, menite sa ne "tempereze" dorul de adevar ,
>de justie (si in fond - de sens): "vinatoarea de vrajitoare"; "setea de
>razbunare"; "extremismul"; "neintelegerea bunelor intentii ale unor
>comunisti", "vinovatia -generala si relativa" ; "robespierrianism ";
>"inversunare" etc.
Where is YOUR "dor[ul] de adevar, de justitie (si in fond - de sens)"?
You see ONLY injustice commited by Jews.
> Liiceanu apeleaza la comparatia inevitabila intre nazism si
>comunism. Cu abilitate Sava eludeaza subiectul.
> [ Eu am avut parte de un tratament mai putin amabil anul trecut -
>cind pledam pentru aceeasi comparatie. Semnalam ca vizita la
>Washington a liderului CC-PCR -Ion Iliescu trebuie denuntata, din
>moment ce ultimele ramasite naziste sint vinate prin Franta si
>aiurea. O discriminare e posibila doar pentru cine considera
>ca distrugerea noastra e mai putin importanta.
The two systems have indeed many points in common. Stalin clearly saw
it that way when he approached Hitler. Oups! I mentioned two
non-Jews
(hope this won't upset you).
I thought I'm paranoic enough for the whole of scr. Now I see that
together we can give it this character for good ("O discriminare e
posibila doar pentru cine considera ca distrugerea noastra e mai putin
importanta.").
As for denouncing Iliescu, that's exactly what Jews should do. We
should tell the Romanians that most of them were stupid and that they
didn't prove themselves worthy Romanians when they voted for him in
such large numbers. I can't wait for their gratitude to the Jews who
would enlighten them like this. Even more anxious I am to see Elena's
reaction.
BTW, hou do you qualify Ambasador Moses's speech?
Oups again! I forgot that this is not a dialogue.
> Domnul Ahronovitz a incercat sa-mi stopeze demersul
>comparativ cu acuzatii de anti-semitism.
Nobody stops you, Mr. Rosca. You play the same record over and over
again, without stopping. Accuzations of anti-Semitism are not a concern
to you. Had they been your postings would not have constantly picked
on Jews and you would have acknowledged the guilt of those who
perpetrated the Romanian Holocaust. You should understand it clearly
by now, so it's obvious that it does not bother you in the least.
> A mers mai departe (a fost
>mai deschis) decit Sava si a afirmat raspicat ca in Romania nu a fost
>nici o crima monumentala , nici un genocid, ca a compara tragedia
>noastra cu Holocaustul e o jignire adusa poporului evreu ...
You have stated this comparison over and over again. You have never
brought any arguments for your theory.
Violence, rape, death marches for men, women, and children, for elders
and the sick, mobs bathing in their blood, looting of their property in
daylight, inequality in rights, the obstruction from finding work, from
performing one's profession, applied selectively to their ethnical group;
what are you comparing to this?
Civilians with no anti-government political activities, shot and thrown
into the river; what are you comparing to this?
The fear and terror that all Jews lived under, "getting it" both from the
government, from extremist groups, and from their own neighbours, all
only because they were Jews; what are you comparing to this?
The media portraying them as a fifth column, abusing them, telling lies
about them and then rallying the mob against them based on these lies;
what are you comparing to this?
Everybody telling them that they are no good, that they don't deserve to
live, that they should get lost, that they killed Jesus and should pay for it,
that they don't have any room any more because it is the time for
Romanians to get everything; what are you comparing to this?
Yes, Romanians suffered under communism, as did Jews and others.
Those guilty deserve to be punished. Your understanding of the
quality and proportion of the two crimes though, is ridiculous.
> Apoi, au venit stirile despre "inalta apreciere" pe care o arata
>anumite asociatii evreiesti liderului comunist dispus "impaciuitor"
>la returnari de proprietati si despagubiri .("miercuri 6 septembrie,
>generalul israelian Moshe Nativ,director general al Agentiei Sochnut
>si ambasadorul Naftali Lavi,vicepresedinte la "World Jewesh
>Restitution Organization" i-au inmanat presedintelui Romaniei, la
>Palatul Cotroceni, medalia jubiliara "Ierusalim 3000" "). Domnul A.
>a uitat sa protesteze, desi ne ceruse ritos sa condamnam ridicarea
>unor statui lui Antonescu. Este clar ca pentru dumnealui "e vorba
>de altceva" si tocmai de aceea cred ca se inseala cind isi imagineaza
>ca simte romaneste !]
Here you're recognizable again - the use of inuendoes. Care to
clarify what "e vorba de altceva" you had in mind? Care to substantiate it
with facts, as well?
> Revenind la dialogul Liiceanu-Sava , tonul filozofului este nu
>"intransigent" (cum sugereaza Sava - rauvoitor) ci disperat. Iar Sava
>se dovedeste mai curind siret decit arogant, desi un tupeu nefiresc
>tisneste in replicile aproape mustratoare pe care si le permite atunci
>cind Liiceanu refuza sa se linisteasca ... E culmea sa acuzi de
>intransigenta un om care nu si-a putut realiza nici o farima dintr-un
>ideal absolut rezonabil si sa predici compromisul tocmai partii cu
>totul calcate in picioare. Sa nu fim intransigenti cu comunistii care
>ne domina in continuare netulburati -iata o foarte cinica
>recomandare !
> Si din nou mi-a dat ghes intrebarea (domnul Sava fiind un evreu
>atit de respectabil) : "De ce nu se plaseaza evreii din Romania in
>tabara anti-comunistilor fermi ?". Pentru ei - care sint de un anti-
>nazism atit de energic si perseverent -este un paradox ! Cum de am
>gasit si gasim evrei in tabara opusa (nu are cred rost sa exemplific ,
>dar am de unde !) dar practic nu putem vorbi de contributia lor la
>rezistenta anti-comunista din Romania ? (Rog sa fiu corectat , daca
>nu sint la curent)
Here you're either playing stupid or you really are (excuse my "refuz
sa ma linistesc"), I have answered one of your posts with examples of
Jews jailed by the communists in the same cells with your mentors (you know
whom I'm talking about). To discount them shows your total
malevolence. Unlike their fellow cell mates who had them in their
hands (again), they were victims during the war as well, not criminals. "Nu
esti la curent" de vreo cincizeci de ani.
Jews have died during the "Revolution"; one of the four that Russian
tanks went over in Moscow was a Jew; Jews have candidated on anti-
communist platforms in Poland and Hungary; there's lots you ignore or
you are unaware of.
> In mai multe rinduri mi s-a reprosat ca aduc in discutie pe evrei ,
>cind fac apel la condamnarea comunismului. Unii au vazut (sau vor
>sa vada ...) in asta - o manifestare "fascista" - dovedind inca o data
>trainicia "dihotomiei" simplificatoare : nazism-comunism. Care
>deturneaza atentia de la raportul : victime -calai si amina nedefinit
>denuntarea "tratamentului" la care comunismul ne- a expus .
> Ori, tocmai aceasta diversiune e grava.
> Si nu pot s-o atac tacind ...
> Mai incerc deci inca o data sa explic de ce ar trebui atrasi si evreii
>romani in aceasta dezbatere :
>a) Genocidul ca subiect
> Holocaustul si condamnarea lui reprezinta precedentul istoric de
>care noi, cei care reclamam Procesul Comunismului ne putem cel
>mai bine prevala.
This is the point, Mr. Rosca. YOU have no right to plea for such
understanding as long as you deny it happened and you attempt to
rehabilitate those who have commited it. Can you understand this?
> Putem cere solidaritatea evreilor fata de o situatie analoga cu
>aceea pentru care au cerut lumii (si nu fara succes) solidaritate.
Do I have to remind you of the clear recognition of the historical
facts
that the other nations have done? Is there any way I can make you see
the
HUGE difference with wich OTHERS have treated this issue?
>Evreii sint intr-o pozitie speciala fata de apelul nostru la justitie. Au
>cucerit o autoritate care le confera raspunderi. Raspunsul lor e un
>adevarat test : vor dovedi ca genocidul le repugna principial si ca au
>cerut justitie in numele omenescului sau se vor arata mai putin
>sensibili la tragedia noastra, relevind psudo-universalismul cererilor
>lor ?
> Daca nu vom insista pentru a obtine un raspuns la aceasta
>intrebare solutia va fi cea mai comoda : eludarea ! Provocind o
>alegere , ne dam sansa de a-i vedea ( macar pe unii dinte ei) alaturi
>de cauza noastra, a carei legitimitate -desconsiderata astazi
>scandalos- ar cistiga un gir important.
> Interventia lor activa ar fi un sprijin de nepretuit. (Poate ca
>supraestimez influenta diasporei evreiesti asupra opiniei publice
>mondiale; in orice caz pare mai mare ca a noastra ...)
Personally I would join such a group, with one condition: if it has
nothing to do with the likes of you. If today, when you appeal for
understanding and help, you find yourself uncapable to denounce your
past apologetic comments on the legionaires, the least likley you are
to become more moral tommorrow, when you would not have to make such
a plea.
Don't forget that the Jews en masse have already made their statement
about Romanian communism: they left the country. Romanians, through
their recent elections, have also made one: they prefer neo-communism,
or they are too lethargic, showing that they don't care about it.
Political instability will bring even more poverty and pain on the
Romanians than they have now. You would be the first to lay the
responsability on the Jews that would participate in the creation of
this instability (that should require no effort, just keep the finger in
the same direction you always had it).
>b Eliberarea de obligatiile razbiului II mondial
> A doua chestiune fata de care evreii au o pozitie particulara si un
>cuvint important de spus este aceea a ingaduintei fata de comunism
>in numele "parteneriatului" anti-nazist. De la ei ar putea veni cel mai
>eficace semnul ca aceasta scuza a expirat.
> Hitler si Stalin au avut nazuinte profund similare. Primul i-a
>amenintat direct pe apuseni in timp ce ultimul s-a multumit sa
>distruga doar pe "estici". Primul avea etnii de "curatat", celalalt
>"clase". In rest, aceleasi viziuni devastatoare, aceleasi "arhitecturi"
>penitenciare, aceleasi tragice realizari...
??? Are you for real? Hitler's Nazis killed more Eastern Europeans
than
Western Europeans. The fact that Romania was its ally does not mean
that other East European countries did not suffer immensely at the
hands of the Nazis. Where did you come up with this from?
> Putem intelege interesele vitale care au dus la alianta Apusului cu
>Stalin (practica, cinica, realista). Si dorinta de a le polei cu o noblete
>contrafacuta. Dar dupa 50 de ani , interesele propagandistice (de
>"igiena" istorico-politica) ale aceluiasi "Apus" nu mai pot sta in
>balanta fata de stringenta nevoii noastre de adevar.
> E absolut monstruos sa ni se mai ceara sa ne sufocam in minciuna
>numai pentru a nu da batai de cap , in "lumea civilizata"... , unor
>functionari anchilozati , unor intelectuali incomodati si unor cetateni
>amenintati sa-si piarda candoarea!
If you loath lie that much, start with what you CAN do immediately.
Your not having done it for so long just proves that it doesn't really
suffocate you personaly.
> Pe de alta parte, noi trebuie sa intelegem ce a reprezentat pentru
>evrei interventia imperiului comunist in razboiul al II-lea mondial :
>salvarea din fata buldozerului hitlerist ! Acesta e un fapt
>incontestabil, cu consecinte de care anti-comunistii trebuie sa tina
>cont. Nu puteai cere unui popor salvat de la moarte sa-si condamne
>imediat salvatorii pentru atrocitatile de care dadeau dovada fata de
>altii. Mai ales ca printre cei pedepsiti, se aflau si nazistii...
How about the Jews who wanted to run away from the Soviets, yet were
gunned down at the Romanian border because your dear Antonescu gave
the explicit order that no Jews were allowed to evacuate Bessarabia at
the time of the withdrawal? Should we count them as communist lovers,
too?
> Dar au trecut 50 de ani. Si pentru noi , nu e vorba de istorie, ci de
>supravietuire. E timpul sa inceteze "discretia" evreilor din Europa de
>Est, -care "au vazut fara sa vada" - fata de Genocidul Rosu .
> Si daca nici acum reverberatiile razboiului mondial nu pot fi
>depasite, ar fi macar cazul ca martorii tacuti sa nu intervina
>"impaciuitor" atunci cind ne tipam suferinta. E o grosolanie.
> In acelasi timp, istoricii evrei ar trebui sa inteleaga ca nu putem
>trata istoria in aceiasi termeni , cit timp minimizeaza amploarea
>comunicidului ; daca evreii nu s-au simtit co-detinuti cu noi in
>lagarul stalinist - inseamna ca au fost efectiv altceva, ca armata
>sovietica i-a eliberat o data cu intemnitarea noastra !
"au vazut fara sa vada" - spurcata limba ai, Mr. Rosca! Guess we
should consider pure fiction all the books the Jews who survived the Gulag
wrote, right? Guess fiction are Goma's encounters of Jews during his
own persecution in Romanian jails.
As for their being liberated, how do you explain that most of the Jews
left
Romania IMMEDIATELY after the war? Why didn't they stay to take
advantage of all those powers they were given over the Romanians, as
you so insidiously imply? And why didn't Israel become a communist state,
with all thes communist Jews going there?
>c Implicarea unor evrei in instalarea comunismului la noi
> Un alt aspect "delicat" -dar important este acela al vinovatiilor si
>resentimentelor.
> Acest subiect are o istorie mai lunga si de aceea cauzalitatile sint
>arborescente, stufoase, complexe. Imi voi permite sa sugerez un
>criteriu rezonabil : cu cit mai indepartate in timp sint cauzele, cu atit
>mai putin intense sint efectele lor actuale . Temporalitatea nu
>determina numai pertinenta judecatilor cauzale ci si prioritatile. E
>mai urgent sa salvezi poporul roman DE AZI de continuarea
>distrugerii sale, decit sa stabilesti vinovatia lui Marx sau a lui
>Nietsche !
> De aceea nu voi discuta aici problematica instalarii si asimilarii
>evreilor in Romania, nici a antisemitismului din secolul trecut, caci
>au (sper) influente atenuate de timp asupra problemei pe care o pun
>in discutie : raportul dintre evreii de azi si anti-comunism.
> In ceeea ce priveste implicarea (semnificativa - dupa toate
>canoanele statisticii ) unor evrei in aventura comunista (de la noi si
>de aiurea), ea nu mai contribuie probabil prea mult la rezerva celor
>din generatia actuala fata de denuntarea caracterului criminal al
>acestei "experiente". In fond o infima minoritate dintre evreii romani
>au avut "porniri comuniste" (si aceea e practic "degenerata" fata de
>adevaratul mozaism) . Dar faptul ca activitatea lor e minimizata
>arata ca subiectul deranjeaza inca. Dintr- o populatie de circa 4% pe
>care o reprezentau evreii in anii '40 procentul (>>4%) pe care l-au
>reprezentat la inceput in PCR si Securitate corelat cu cel infim
>(<<4%) pe care l-au reprezentat in cadrul rezistentei anti-comuniste
>active lasa loc la intrebari si explicatii ce nu trebuie escamotate
>(vezi in acest sens si demersul laudabil al domnului Vladimir
>Tismaneanu ).
It does not bother me to repeat here, as I have done before: yes, some
Jews contributed disproportionately to the Romanian communist party
and that through active part in attrocities. They are guilty and
should be judged as such. For example, I have books full of names of Jewish
communists who denounced their fellow Jews for wanting to leave for
Israel and contributing thus to their arrest and persecution (ironically
many of those wounded up depending on their former victims when
THEY decided to emigrate - does this irony sound familiar?). Those
Jews who gave up Judaiasm became convinced atheists and fought
against religious beliefs in general, against the Ortodox church as well.
What are we to do with the other (90%) of guilty communists, though?
You never mention how you want them punished.
>d Sentimente ale generatiei evadate
> Poate ca nici recunostinta fata de doborirea nazismului, nici jena
>de a recunoaste rolul cu totul deplorabil jucat de citiva evrei in
>instalarea terorii comuniste la noi , nu mai sint azi factori importanti.
> Ceea ce probabil conteaza insa , tine de sentimentele si interesele
>generatiei in viata .
> Evreii (si germanii) din Romania au scapat regimului comunist
>pe baza unui tirg facut cu conducatorii lagarului. A fost sansa lor si
>nici un repros nu-si are rostul.
> Au platit cu bani. Si au platit cu multa discretie. Cit timp mai
>aveau compatrioti (in sens etnic ...) de extras din iad , cei scapati s-
>au abtinut de la comentarii agresive... Din nou- omeneste explicabil.
>Dar in acelasi timp, important de consemnat pentru a intelege
>apatia de azi.
If this is so important, let's mention the Jews who were punished as
"burgezi", for wanting to leave, and those who waited for many years,
after losing their jobs, to get their passport. For the sake of accuracy,
"pentru a intelege apatia de azi", let's say that those who left made many a
Romanian richer than they have ever been, when their possesions were
confiscated (even as late as the sixties, those leaving the country could
not take any valuable goods with them, because they were "patrimoniul
statului"). If you believe that after all that it endured in Romania, that
Jewish generation is somehow in debt, think again.
> Sute de mii de evrei si germani au iesit. Citi dintre ei s-au lansat
>in denuntarea cumplitei crime care se savirsea in Romania ?
> Eu cred ca un nerecunoscut si refulat sentiment de vinovatie
>pentru vechea tacere e motivul principal al prelungirii ei. Un pervers
>cerc vicios. Nu mai poti urla ca s-a petrecut o crima la care ai fost
>martor ocular, dupa ce ai tacut atita timp... Timp in care ai vorbit
>neincetat despre obligatia de a denunta trecutul Holocaust !
>Scapindu-ti din vedere (?!) uciderea cu incetinitorul a romanilor, in
>plina desfasurare !
Read Antonescu's letter that I published in another thread. Your
attitude is the same: you are accusing the victims. How about this, Mr. Rosca:
let's change places and you turn the chick for once?
>e "Geo-comandamente" si interese ale celor nerebdatori intru afaceri
> Nu trebuie sa neglijam si interesele strategice - mai mult sau mai
>putin "geo".
> Interesele "Apusului" in general (stabilitate cu orice pret ) se
>ciocnesc de riscurile pe care le presupune o adevarata rasturnare a
>puterii comuniste. Lumea bi-polara functioneaza binisor pentru
>Apus : mina libera in propria sfera de inflenta (sub acoperirea
>amenintarii "dusmanului") ; concurenta limitata din partea statelor
>anchilozate de comunism; afaceri interesante cu temnicieri verosi;
>posibilitatea de a folosi comunismul ca sperietoare pentru revoltatii
>din cimpul propriu etc.
Mr. Rosca, you are correct. A business person (read corporation as well)
that is serious about investment has to look at profit and the stability of
the place of business (so that it is assured of the return on its investment).
Romania does not appear as a good business place now. A change of
Government and instability will make it even less likely a candidate and
will empoverish the population even more. If such a reversal would be to
occur, those doing it will pay dearly (maybe even with their life) failures
that are imminent. To add to it punishments of different degrees on a
quarter of the population (you are serious about judging and condemning
Romanian communists, right?), will not make such a government too
popular (today's leadrers know it very well).
> "Finanta mondiala" are si ea un anume calendar de prioritati ... O
>afacere avantajoasa se poate face cu un regim solid insurubat in
>ciuda oricaror consideratii "etice" (un exemplu oarecare e itinerarul
>de faceri a primului ministru canadian Jean Chretien "magnetizat"
>de dictaturi de toate culorile...). Cu cita candoare ni se vorbeste de
>importanta relatiilor normale cu anormala China ...
> "Agitatia anti-comunista" de la noi amina "relansarea" unei pieti
>tinere si promitatoare. Nervozitatea noastra deranjeaza...
Believe it or not, history and xenofobia have a lot more to do with it.
This perception can be changed only through a change from inside the
society.
> La scara mai mica, opereaza autonom pofta de cistiguri rapide a
>unor indivizi pentru care "chichitele morale" sint bazaconii
>perturbatoare.
> Evreii plecati din Romania sint -in mod firesc, datorita
>familiaritatii cu spatiul romanesc- printre cei mai seriosi candidati la
>relansarea afacerilor pe teritoriul post-comunist.
> Dreptul lor. Norocul sau ghinionul nostru.
> Numai sa nu ni se spuna sa ne ducem crucea discret pentru ca
>aceste afaceri sa nu fie perturbate !
You will notice that Jews are not among the main investors. That should
give you some food for thought and at the same time relieve you: you're
carring your cross discretely so that Arab and Turkish businesses are not
disturbed. Hope you feel better.
> Nu putem ura succes intreprinderilor securisto-straine.
Oh, thou foreigner! God's wrath be on thou, for you alone are the root of
all evil in Romania!
Sounds familiar?
> Au la temelie rudele si visele noastre . Stapina absolut in Romania, Mafia
>Securi-Comunista are nevoie de sprijin din afara, pentru a se integra
>in "circuitul mondial ". Cind il va obtine , se spulbera si ultimele
>sperante de a mai fi rasturnata.
Oups! You got the wrong word again. In Legionaire rethoric and
mentality - proved through their actions - the word is "inlocuita".
Guess one can not be asked to learn and retain it all; never mind, as long
as you stick with blaiming the Jews and the foreigners, you're doing just
fine.
>
> Pe evrei ii putem ruga sa ne menajeze -in masura posibilului- in
>numele reciprocitatii (si ei au apelat la izolarea criminalilor nazisti)
>si a faptului ca sint mai in masura ca alti "parteneri straini" sa
>aprecieze cine sint "tinerii intreprinzatori" romani. Pina si banii
>excrocati de la evrei pentru parasirea lagarului, sint in "capitalul
>social" al Tovarasilor Patroni. Curat capital social ! Murdar capital
>social ...
I guess they are proving exactly what you want them to do. Jewish
investment is minimal and mostly at the level of former Romanian Jews
who, believing they know the terrain, are trying their fortunes. I've
tried it myself and I had no chance; not because they don't want to do
business with Jews, but because I did not play it with the system.
Personally I have misgivings against my first impulse to call for
absenteism of Jewish business there every time I think of my friends
still there in Romania. Somehow I have the impression that of the money
that go in some eventually reach them.
> Trebuie sa se stie ca in acest moment se pot face afaceri la scara
>mare doar cu "SS"-istii romani !
> Mai exact, sa se stie ca stim ca se stie !
If they mange to stabilize the climate and keep the power, investment
money will start pouring in.
>Observatie:
> M-am adresat evreilor pentru a le explica o viziune pe care par a
> nu o intelege.
> Toate acestea se potrivesc insa perfect si tacerii multora dintre
> etnicii romani - plecati, sau ramasi.
> Uitarea se poate dovedi salutara pentru o constiinta framintata
> (de remuscari, de rusini, de amintiri dureroase, de resentimente
> nerefulate, de umilinte nedigerate) mai ales daca aceasta
> obstaculeaza eventual o ocazie de cistig ("oameni sintem ...")
> Ne recucerim cu totii "virginitatea" - uitind violul !
> Mizerabila si precara solutie. Vom adauga un nou strat de
> murdarie peste gunoiul pe care comunismul l-a depozitat in
> sufletul nostru. De asta data, chiar fara circumstanta atenuanta a
> supunerii la forta.
> Ar trebui sa iesim din tacere. "Apusul" trebuie provocat. Si cum
>multora nu le va pasa nici de data asta, sa ne orientam spre cei
>carora ar mai fi o sansa sa le pese.
> Provocarea pe care o lansez evreilor din Romania nu trebuie
>rastalmacita. Detest ideea de raspundere colectiva. Sint perfect
>constient de rolul fundamental al Moscovei si de contributia
>esentiala a etnicilor romani. Nu pretind ca participarea "evreului" la
>comunicid e mai mare decit a "romanului". Dar SA IMPARTIM
>DATORIA DE A MARTURISI. Ceea ce pun in discutie e obligatia
>noastra- a tuturor martorilor genocidului comunist - de a-i denunta
>nocivitatea.
> Cind iesi dintr-un viol , martorii care aleg tacerea -vor nu vor-
>actioneaza impotriva victimelor !
You're a hypocrite, again. You're asking for that that you yourself
are not capable of doing.
>
> Atrag atentia (celor sensibilizabili) ca retinerea pe care o manifesta
>evreii din Romania in a denunta comunismul in aceiasi termeni cu
>nazismul poate (si va ) provoca suspiciuni si chiar animozitati.
Go join Buchannan's campaign. You have the same threatening language.
> Unii vor manevra acest capital incit sa "actualizeze" xenofobia !
>In spatele Vadimilor se vor aseza romani ce nu i-ar intovarasi daca
>ar fi tratati mai cu tact ...
I believe you're very much off the mark here. First, Jews will be the target
REGARDLESS of the position they will take. It has always been the
case in Romania and there are NO SIGNS that this is changing. Second,
Romanians have shown their option and they would blame the Jews less
if Jews would invest in Romania now. There's no sign of moral and
ethical values being more important for Romanians than food, perceived
stability, and nationalistic rethoric (this goes for most peoples, by
the way).
> Paunestii vor confisca si malforma mai usor sentimentul national
>daca intelectualitatea democratica se va converti in bloc la
>universalism , in asincronism cu sentimentele propriului popor. Iar
>ramura securicomunista cu vederi progresiste se poate dovedi un
>periculos "tovaras de drum"... Polarizarea care se croieste azi in
>Romania e mai subtil periculoasa decit se crede.
>
> Atitudinea evreilor romani poate cintari mult in coagularea
>politica din Romania si in dezmortirea "Vestului". Avem nevoie de
>ajutorul lor.
> Au o mare ocazie sa-si arate prietenia (fraternitatea) fata de cei cu
>care au convietuit !
>
> In asteptarea "Miscarii Evreiesti pentru Procesul Comunicidului"...
>Ioan Rosca Montreal 17 martie 1996
I claim that any reversal of fortunes is directly linked to the Romanians
themselves changing their mentality. Answering less to nationalists like
you, and more to moral and ethical principles will through hemselves give
them more strength and power than all the nationalistic rethoric ever.
Your last argument is crucial. Indeed, the shift towards nationalism is an
ominous presence (as a matter of fact, you're just one of those who want
that slice for themselves).
What I perceive as the hope is education. Romanians are astute and
presented with information they will understand the options they face and
formulate by themselves the right path for them (definitely not you dream,
but in all probability not mine, either). They will themselves make the
process of communism, and unlike you the will not single out the Jews,
even though using them as a scapegoat is traditional.
Rad